Which is better, Sports or Cruiser?

topic posted Thu, April 27, 2006 - 6:22 PM by  Unsubscribed
How useless is this question?
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    Re: Which is better, Sports or Cruiser?

    Thu, April 27, 2006 - 6:58 PM
    D.O.T.S. Depends On The Situation

    What kind of riding will the bike primarily be used for? Commuting to work or school short distances every day? Travel from state to state?

    Do you have any physical injuries (back, shoulder, etc?) that could make it uncomfortable to ride a sport bike?

    The answer depends on you. Tell us more about what you want to do with a bike.
  • Re: Which is better, Sports or Cruiser?

    Thu, April 27, 2006 - 7:09 PM
    Possibly more useless than arguing about helmet laws.
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      Re: Which is better, Sports or Cruiser?

      Thu, April 27, 2006 - 7:23 PM
      There are no laws dictating which type of bike we must ride.
      • Re: Which is better, Sports or Cruiser?

        Fri, April 28, 2006 - 6:43 PM
        But there are laws on what type of bike i _can't_ ride...
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          Re: Which is better, Sports or Cruiser?

          Sat, April 29, 2006 - 2:47 PM
          Which laws?
          • Re: Which is better, Sports or Cruiser?

            Sat, April 29, 2006 - 7:52 PM
            >Which laws?

            The light, fast, fuel efficient 2-stokes that i want in my garage are not available in the us due to EPA laws prohibiting thie importation of 2-stroke street bikes.
            • Re: Which is better, Sports or Cruiser?

              Sat, April 29, 2006 - 8:09 PM
              That's a good thing. While 2-strokes are beautifully efficient machines, the highly toxic emissions that they spew out (because of the fuel lubricantion system) cause cancer, birth defects, and blood diseases. On a per-mile basis, they churn out 30x (!) the VOCs, hydrocarbons (primarily the carcinogens Benzene and 1,3-Butadiene), and gasseous formaldehyde than a GMC Sierra.

              The engine manufacturers agreed to the 2-stroke phaseout because a couple of studys showed higher incidences of cancer among 2-stroke riders, and the manufacturers feared lawsuit if they kept putting them on the market.
              • Re: Which is better, Sports or Cruiser?

                Sun, April 30, 2006 - 1:29 AM
                bullshit. show me _scientific_ facts. And remove california gas out of the equation (mtbe and stroke oil don't get along).

                All of the studies I have seen are highly biased. The same type of studies that have kept efficient diesel engines out of the US, and MTBE in california gas.

                • Re: Which is better, Sports or Cruiser?

                  Sun, April 30, 2006 - 10:23 AM
                  Riiight. Leaded gas also helped engines preform much better, but the EPA got rid of it as an additive because it made a judgement call based on independent scientific research that the additive caused childhood retardation. The auto industry basically made the same arguments you do here, but the additive was banned anyhow, and childhood retardation fell precipitously.

                  "Up to one-third of the fuel delivered to the engine goes straight through and out the tailpipe without being burned. Second, lubricating oil is mixed directly into the fuel, and is expelled as part of the exhaust. Third, poor combustion results in high emissions of air pollutants as well as several toxic pollutants, such as benzene and aromatic hydrocarbons that the EPA classifies as known probable human carcinogens.

                  When compared to other emission estimates, a snowmobile using a conventional two-stroke engine, on a per-passenger mile basis, emits approximately 36 times more carbon monoxide and 98 times more hydrocarbons than an automobile."
                  -SEMA (non-gov't study)

                  "These engines create dangerous levels of airborne toxins including nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide, ozone, particulate matter, aldehydes, 1,3 butadiene, benzenes, and extremely persistent polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs). Several of these compounds are listed as "known" or "probable" human carcinogens by EPA...

                  Two-stroke engines also discharge 25-30% of their fuel mixture, unburned, directly into the environment. Given current levels of snowmobile use in Yellowstone National Park, this translates into the equivalent of five tanker truck loads of gasoline being dumped along park roads each winter. Unburned fuel contains many toxic compounds including benzene, toluene, xylene and the extremely persistent suspected human carcinogen MTBE. Two-strokes are one of the largest unchecked sources of pollution nationwide. ... Snowmobiles are extremely, extremely dirty compared to anything else ... (s)nowmobiles are the worst there is"
                  -Senate Expert Engineering Testimony of Charles Emmett, May 25, 2000

                  "Two-stroke engine driven vehicles emit poisonous gases as these engines have very low efficiency to burn hydrocarbon. Hydrocarbon such as benzo(a)pyrene are produced by incomplete combustion. Bezo(a)pyrene is classified as a proven carcinogen which in process encompassing the conversion of normal cells to neoplastic cells into a tumour."
                  Dr. Jamal Anwar, explaining cancer proliferation in Dhaka, Bangladesh after introduction of two-stroke engine as major transportation mode

                  "In response to EPA's 1991 finding that recreational marine engines contribute 3 percent of all hydrocarbon emissions in the U.S., NMMA's member engine manufacturers accelerated their plans to aggressively develop new, cleaner-burning engines, which are both environmentally responsible, and consumer friendly. Research and development investment by engine manufacturers, creating entirely new lines of products, amount to an estimated $500 million. These improved engines will utilize four-stroke, direct- injected, and other low emission technologies for outboards and personal water-craft...

                  America's marine engine manufacturers have great confidence in the technical capability of our new designs. Because it is in the best interest of our manufacturers to have these new technology engines penetrate the market, as rapidly as possible, the marine engine industry will continue to extend every cooperation to CARB as it, and other agencies, develop new technical emissions standards and time-tables."
                  -National Marine Manufactures Association, on why it is phasing out two-stroke engine production, APRIL 22, 1998, Hearing of the Health and Environment Subcommitte of the House Commerce Committee

                  I've got tons more, but I know that some folks will never listen. I just wanted to put some of this information out there. Don't get me wrong; I loved riding two-strokes (especially dirtbikes) when they were around. Those engines are engineering masterpieces, putting out great horsepower and sweet torque. I sympathise with you. But I'm simply not willing to pay that huge environmental cost just to indulge my fascination for a dying technology when there are alternatives out there that are just as cool.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Which is better, Sports or Cruiser?

                    Sun, April 30, 2006 - 1:17 PM
                    Ummm, you're talking about snowmobile engines. Could you post some facts about motorcycles?
                    • Re: Which is better, Sports or Cruiser?

                      Sun, April 30, 2006 - 1:49 PM
                      Nope, these are all types of 2-strokes (the above cited material discussed motorcycles, marine watercraft and snowmobiles). Please let me know if there are substantial differences between the two-strokes in snowmobiles, those in marine watercraft, and those in motorcycles. Its my understanding that the internals are pretty much the same, but I may be mistaken.
                      • Re: Which is better, Sports or Cruiser?

                        Sun, April 30, 2006 - 2:29 PM
                        well, the evironmental conditions in which they run will greatly impact how the engine runs. Also Air cool vs Water cooled engines are different beast.

                        Air cooled engines are subject to temperature fluctuations based on the speed on movement and the amount of power the engine is being asked to put out. These are the engines that are notoriously bad polluters as the engine is never within a stable enough temperature range to tune the engine for efficiency. They engines tend to be tuned on the rich side to keep them from stallin. This is fairly common in 2 stroke snowmobiles and whatercraft. Lazy mechanics, who are trying to keep the customer from coming back because the engine is moody, could help a lot of those problems.

                        Not many of these engines are still produced.

                        Modern water cooled 2 stokes (those produced after 2000) using efficient carbs and catalytic converters, produce 70-90% fewer emmisions. This technology is fairly cheap and has been embraced by the 2 stroke community as a neccessary concession.

                        www.sledcity.com/news/news..._story.cfm gives a pretty good write up of the technology i am refering to.

                        FWIW, my Aprilia RS50 in full race trim emits fewer pollutants and than my Toyota Corolla. (Tested with the last generation of California emissions control equipment.). And that is without using a catalyst. It could be even better if they made a cat small enough.

                        That's my $.02. I don't want to come off as a knee jerk rabid anti-environmentalist, but it kills me that the standards are be set without recognizing that there are alternitives. Sierra Club has on hell of a lobby, and they are great at using outdated data to further their cause.
                        • Re: Which is better, Sports or Cruiser?

                          Sun, April 30, 2006 - 5:48 PM
                          Right on. For the most part, I don’t disagree with you. The problem isn’t that it is impossible to make a reasonably non-polluting 2-stroke, it is just that the industry isn’t pushing for it because it is more profitable to spend their development money on 4-strokes.

                          The vast majority of the two-strokers out there right now aren’t of the type you are describing (catalytic converter, water-cooled and well-tuned), and instead wreak significant adverse effects on the environment. The worldwide market for two-stroke engines is shrinking, due to bans in many European and Asian countries, so engine manufacturers aren’t developing cleaner versions of the two-strokes and are instead focusing on 4-strokers.

                          Most of the engine manufacturers develop engine lines for personal watercraft, motorcycles, and snowmobiles in tandem. And, due to the features that you described, two-stroke technology is on its way out in snowmobiles and personal watercraft, so there really isn’t too much of an incentive to develop the technology for motorcycles.

                          Plus, when the International Motorcycle Federation banned the bikes for GP racing (to Honda’s dismay; they made some great two-strokers) it signaled the death-knell for the technology.
                          • Re: Which is better, Sports or Cruiser?

                            Sun, April 30, 2006 - 6:22 PM
                            >The problem isn’t that it is impossible to make a reasonably non-polluting 2-stroke, it is just that the industry isn’t pushing for it because it is more profitable to spend their development money on 4-strokes.

                            It's sort of an example of the cart leading the horse. When the US banned the import of 2 strokes, it killed a major market for the manufactureres. Cagiva had a great thing going with the Mito, in 125, and 250cc flavours. Aprilia had the RS125, and 250. Honda had a couple of 250 2 strokes. Yamaha has the RGV250 and RGV500. All of these are great machines. And then there was great bimota v-due escapade...

                            Due to the fact that they were not able to sell them in the US, and pressure from EPA, further development of 2stroke technology has slowed down greatly. CARB has basicly said that no matter how efficient a 2stroke engine is, it will not approve it for use in Ca. Kind of a buzzkill for the 2 stroke engineers.
  • Re: Which is better, Sports or Cruiser?

    Fri, April 28, 2006 - 5:38 PM
    I have both, a 750 Kawi cruiser for the sit up straight and ride in comfort and a sport touring 1100 Kawi for the fast hyway open road riding. I was able to put some Hyway pegs on to give my leg a stretch on the1100.--riderz00m
  • Re: Which is better, Sports or Cruiser?

    Fri, May 12, 2006 - 11:40 AM
    It all depends on my mood I have a 93 FZR 1000 and a 74 Guzzi Eldo if I feel like canyon carving its the FZR but if I just want to go for a mellow ride through the countryside then I take the Eldo. I dont think that one is better than the other they are both wonderful.

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